Talk: Jim Moriarty

Categories

One of the categories for Jim Moriarty was "deceased".

SPOILERS

After His Last Vow, I think it would make sense to change that tag. Penguinwithabox (talk) 22:56, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I think we'd be justified in removing it. It hasn't been definitely stated that he's alive, but we also can't assume he's dead. --Amateur Obsessive (talk) 23:22, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. JM is dead and won't return. Why?

• Sacreligious as it may sound, we're talking fictional characters here. Moffat, Gatiss and co. have proven themselves to be wonderful story tellers. For JM to return, the Sherlock producers will have to show that there were not one but *two* fake suicides on the roof, independent of each other. We know how SH faked his death, but how could JM fake his death so well that it would fool Sherlock? Unless, of course, he knew that JM was still alive but kept it to himself until JM revealed himself. This is so far-fetched that it crosses the line into stupidity.
• If you haven't yet seen the Comic-Con 2013 Panel with Gatiss, Moffat and producer Sue Vertue yet, do so. They make it quite clear (around the 10 minute mark) that Moriarty is dead. ["He is dead." "He is dead."  "He is dead." "Shot himself through the brain stem. You don't come back from that."]

In summary, Moriart is dead. He's not pining for the fiords. He's passed on. This arch-villain is no more. He has ceased to be. He's expired and gone to meet his maker. He's a stiff. Bereft of life, he rests in peace. He's pushing up the daisies. His metabolic processes are now history. He's off the twig. He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible. He is an ex-villain. Deceased, in other words.

[Edited: formatting]

Piscador (talk) 05:20, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

As much as I'd like to believe that the character is dead and not returning, we have to write these pages purely based on what we see on screen. What we saw on screen didn't give us an answer one way or the other to whether he's alive or dead. Anything else is speculation - and the shows writers can't be trusted to tell us the truth about events either. --Amateur Obsessive (talk) 09:20, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

But remember that Moffat and Gatiss have never been entirely truthful. Penguinwithabox (talk) 20:34, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I've thought long and hard about what you both have said. On reviewing Moriarty's suicide, I can't see how it could have been faked well enough to fool SH. JM put a gun in his mouth, pulled the trigger and fell, blood pooling beneath his head. If he had used a blank cartridge, this very likely have killed him anyway. Episode 1 in season 3 dealt briefly with the aftermath of Sherlock's 'suicide'. Presumably, JM's body would have been pretty thoroughly examined and identified. The only evidence in favour of JM's return is an image broadcast on TV by person or persons unknown, accompanied by a disguised voice. This, I think, is far too flimsy to call his death doubtful. IMHO, we should keep the "deceased" tag in place unless we get further evidence to the contrary.

Also, both of you have also said that Moffat and Gatiss have been known to mislead Sherlock fans. I did a quick search but couldn't find any examples of this. Could you point me in the right direction? Piscador (talk) 21:07, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

I think the show has had more unrealistic things in it than the possibility of Moriarty being alive. We'll find out eventually, it isn't that long to wait.

As to examples of them lying, it's something every show runner will probably do - they mislead or lie to keep plots a secret. I do have a few examples though:

• 'Doctor Who' Steven Moffat: 'I've lied my arse off about 50th' - obviously this is about Doctor Who, but it's an example of what he'd do to protect storylines.
• Video: Sherlock's Steven Moffat intends to keep us in the dark: in this video we get this quote: "Surely you must have learned by now not to try and predict us. We deliberately lie, we deliberately confuse in order to keep you in the dark about our intentions."

I'm sure there are better/other examples, but those are just off the top of my head. --Amateur Obsessive (talk) 23:17, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

A few more points which seem salient- 

1. SH never actually checks Moriarty's body up close. We hear what appears to be a gunshot and see blood pool behind his head. No actual wounds whatsoever are visible. 

2. As I recall, all the headlines talk about 'consulting detective commits suicide!' This is opposed to 'consulting detective involved in double suicide/murder-suicide!' This is not conclusive... EITHER WAY. 

3. Sherlock's motivation is to prove he's clever, right? Given that, which would seem more satisfying to him- saying 'no, you're not dead' and kicking Moriarty until he got the word to call off the assasins, or winning by Moriarty's own rules, making nearly everyone in the world believe he is dead, dismantle an international crime syndicate single handedly then pop up and say 'surprise! I'm just that good!' and when Moriarty comes back say "so yeah, I REALLY won our last exchange!"

I'm not saying JM is definitely alive, but there is certainly reasonable doubt. I think at most he could only be labeled 'presumed dead', realistically.

146.115.163.9 05:39, July 2, 2014 (UTC)